Curse

Qi Ang · Jun 20, 2005, 03:41 PM // 15:41

The whole Rune Trader situation lessens the excitement of having Uncommon and Rare drops. I used to get excited whenever I would pick up a purple or gold armor drop... Now the whole experience seems kind of pointless. It's like playing a FPS where you get all of your weapons in the first stage, you have nothing to look forward to later in the game.

Sure prices got rediculous, and people complained about having to pay over 20K for a superior rune... But I can guarantee they weren't complaining when they FOUND a superior rune and sold it for just as much.

Great Gjl · Jun 20, 2005, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qi Ang

Now the whole experience seems kind of pointless. It's like playing a FPS where you get all of your weapons in the first stage, you have nothing to look forward to later in the game.

I don't play video games for 'fulfillment' (wow, what a pathetic notion) or 'achievement.' I play them for fun, and I think that's the whole point of a video game. If the only time you are having fun in this game is when a rune drops, then I do pity you for continuing to play it, or even playing FOR it.

I don't want to look forward to having fun, I want to be having fun while I'm playing.

Sekkira · Jun 20, 2005, 03:49 PM // 15:49

I'm a bit of two minds with the rune trader. It introduced a lot of good into the game, it also detracted away from the game as well.

... And that's all I really have to say without repeating everything that has been said before...

sPaM

Sekkira · Jun 20, 2005, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Great Gjl

I don't play video games for 'fulfillment' (wow, what a pathetic notion) or 'achievement.' I play them for fun, and I think that's the whole point of a video game. If the only time you are having fun in this game is when a rune drops, then I do pity you for continuing to play it, or even playing FOR it.

I don't want to look forward to having fun, I want to be having fun while I'm playing.

But isn't fun a fulfillment and isn't it an achievement aswell?

Algren Cole · Jun 20, 2005, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Great Gjl

Actually, I don't give a crap about PvE in this game and pretty much bought it solely for PvP. I'm in the 'I only play PvE because I have to' camp, but way to go making another baseless assumption.

Since we're being pedantic, I'd like to point out I said 'bad grammar and spelling', and not 'bad grammar and poor spelling,' and that I wasn't referring to just the two spelling mistakes you pointed out. It's also 'your' opinion, not 'you're.' See? I can write pointless shit too.

ya...I really don't have time for upset PvPers...I'm sorry that I find "point, click, wait for them to die" pointless...I'm sorry that I don't agree with you in that this game is even worth it as PvP....though that's not really enough reason to pontificate...play the game the way you want to....it doesn't affect me in any way...arguing over spelling and grammar means you've got nothing of value to contribute...other than the fact that you're obviously upset about my not liking the PvP aspect of this game.

Aug · Jun 20, 2005, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Achievement is a source of fun for many players. Myself included. The rune trader did nothing to diminish my sense of achievement. I still want every Superior rune unlocked, and the rune trader can't do that for me. I paid 25,000 gold for a Superior Monk unidentified rune this morning. Rune prices are still quite high, if you don't unlock them yourself.

Algren Cole · Jun 20, 2005, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aug

Algren - it's obvious you know as much about programming and software development processes as you do economics. Just stop typing while you're ahead

why you feel the need to throw personal insults into a converation about a video game befuddles me...I'm not as tactless enough to do the same. Though I surely hope it helped you feel better about yourself.

Great Gjl · Jun 20, 2005, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

ya...I really don't have time for upset PvPers...I'm sorry that I find "point, click, wait for them to die" pointless...I'm sorry that I don't agree with you in that this game is even worth it as PvP....though that's not really enough reason to pontificate...play the game the way you want to....it doesn't affect me in any way...arguing over spelling and grammar means you've got nothing of value to contribute...other than the fact that you're obviously upset about my not liking the PvP aspect of this game.

Read my first post.

Actually, I was arguing over spelling and grammar because I thought that was the only thing worth arguing about in that post of yours about 'The basis for my entire argument as to why ArenaNet is a company that is doomed to fail.'

Quote:

"point, click, wait for them to die"

I don't see how that's any different from PvE...Either way, I really don't give a crap. You're the one who brought the whole PvP/PvE thing into this anyway. If I've come across as upset to you, then amuses me even more.

Quote:

But isn't fun a fulfillment and isn't it an achievement aswell?

I meant fulfillment in the sense of achieving something. I need to spend more time posting these things. =/

Algren Cole · Jun 20, 2005, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Great Gjl

Read my first post.

Actually, I was arguing over spelling and grammar because I thought that was the only thing worth arguing about in that post of yours about 'The basis for my entire argument as to why ArenaNet is a company that is doomed to fail.'

k...argument noted.

Deagol · Jun 20, 2005, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Sigh! Some runes are "worth" 25g because the supply (number of drops) is larger than the demand (number of players with builds that would benefit from them). They are actually not even worth 25g, it is just the fixed minimum price.

The rune trader has nothing to do with that, it is just market economics. All the rune trader did was to make the market more efficient. Previously, you could sometimes buy for less or sell for more than the market price, because many players find killing monsters more fun than trading in the spam market.

The only losers to the rune trader are those who find the spam market fun, they can no longer take advantage of the impatience of those who find it boring.

Anyone else who think the rune price is too low or too high should petition ArenaNet to change the number of rune drops, rather than remove the trader.

Dreamsmith · Jun 20, 2005, 04:23 PM // 16:23

It's funny that people complain about the need to trade by spamming the trade channel, and ask for ArenaNet to implement some way for game assisted trading, but when they do it, people complain about it.

This is going to happen with any system of trading other than "go to Lion's Arch and spam". With the rune trader, I go to a city and sell what I want, and someone else goes to a city and buys what I sold, and the trader takes a cut. The only real difference between now and before is we don't have to both be in the same city and district at the same time, and a cut of the transaction is dropping in the pockets of the trader who helped facilitate our trade. Well, that and one other thing: it's made trading runes a lot easier, which is actually the big change.

In any system where the game assists people in trading, it's going to make trading easier and more common. When more trading occurs between more people, prices are going to more accurately reflect real value. Most people aren't willing to pay 50 HP for a +2 when they can get a +3 for 75HP, thus major runes aren't worth very much -- minor runes are frequently worth more, as shown in Sekkira's screenshot. This isn't a problem with the rune trader, it's an accurate reflection of the real value of these items. ANY system that aids players in trading is going to have this kind of result, if it actually works in making trading easier for players.

Make trading easy, and very quickly, the real value of things will become apparent. If you then find the prices odd, well, that says something about the game and items in question, their actual rarity and usefulness. It's not a defect in the trade system, just perhaps in the game itself.

Creston · Jun 20, 2005, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Most people aren't willing to pay 50 HP for a +2 when they can get a +3 for 75HP, thus major runes aren't worth very much

Agreed. But isn't this a flaw in the system to begin with? We're now SEEING what the real value of runes is. And that is that 90+% of the runes are completely worthless, because nobody is buying them.

Well, except for the occasional peep here or there who likes the major runes, but in general, all the runes that are at 25 gold are just considered "worthless" by the very very very large majority of players. Because otherwise they would sell better.

So isn't this indicative that the rune system ITSELF maybe needs a bit of an overhaul? We have this cool stuff that we can craft into our armor, but nobody is using it beyond minor runes and the occasional Superior. It seems kind of a waste of what COULD be a really cool system to boost character power. I understand that in PvP that won't matter much, but in PvE it makes for a nice upgrade ability for your character that just doesn't seem to be used a lot right now. Which is a shame, imo. There should be a slow progression from minor to major to superior runes. Not just "create character, go to Old Ascalon, buy 1 superior, four minors, forget about runes for the rest of the game."

Creston

Algren Cole · Jun 20, 2005, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creston

Agreed. But isn't this a flaw in the system to begin with? We're now SEEING what the real value of runes is. And that is that 90+% of the runes are completely worthless, because nobody is buying them.

Well, except for the occasional peep here or there who likes the major runes, but in general, all the runes that are at 25 gold are just considered "worthless" by the very very very large majority of players. Because otherwise they would sell better.

So isn't this indicative that the rune system ITSELF maybe needs a bit of an overhaul? We have this cool stuff that we can craft into our armor, but nobody is using it beyond minor runes and the occasional Superior. It seems kind of a waste of what COULD be a really cool system to boost character power. I understand that in PvP that won't matter much, but in PvE it makes for a nice upgrade ability for your character that just doesn't seem to be used a lot right now. Which is a shame, imo. There should be a slow progression from minor to major to superior runes. Not just "create character, go to Old Ascalon, buy 1 superior, four minors, forget about runes for the rest of the game."

Creston

Thank you Creston

Dreamsmith · Jun 20, 2005, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Creston: Yes and no. Well, largely yes. Major runes need some love from the developers, since no matter how you slice it, they're the least valuable type of rune. Regardless of whether you think it's worth giving up HP for attribute points, you'd rather have either a minor or a superior than a major. Even with majors being rarer, the demand for them is rarer still.

OTOH, you can't simply take any differences in prices as being a sign of game problems. Take for example the prices of minor runes of various classes. The average price of a mesmer rune is less than the average price of a warrior rune. Something would be wrong with the trading system if that wasn't the case. Think about it. Look around any city. How many mesmers do you see compared to how many warriors?

If you want proof of how wildly unrealistic prices of runes were before the trader, just look at how most any minor rune would sell for 300-500gp. This despite the fact that runes drop in equal quantities, so the number of warrior runes droped in a given hour is probably smaller than the number of warriors that would like one, whereas the number of mesmer runes that drop in a given hour is probably greater than the number of mesmers in the game. A mesmer rune should be dirt cheap compared to a warrior rune of the same quality, simply based on population vs. drop rates. That's not a symptom of poorly balanced runes, it's simply supply and demand.

Now, one could argue that maybe that reflects a class balance issue, but ultimately, certain classes are always going to be more popular than others. Warriors will always be popular, it'd be damn near impossible to nerf them into oblivion, they're such a role-playing staple. Likewise, elementalists will probably always be more popular than mesmers, and fire will be more popular than air, no matter how much more powerful air is than fire. There's too many pyromaniacs in the population for purely pragmatic concerns to overwhelm basic human nature. The game would have to be imbalanced in order to bring balance to class populations. In a perfectly balanced game, certain classes will be more popular than others, and thus even in a perfectly balanced game, there will be significant price differences between various runes. Fire runes will be worth more because fire is more popular, not because it's more powerful. You get the idea.

So, yes, price differential can and sometimes does indicate a game problem, but other times it's just an accurate reflection of the game population and preferences that exist irregardless of game balance issues.

burianek · Jun 20, 2005, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Agreed, apart from the Major runes, which nobody currently loves, supply and demand is kind of out of the power of the devs.
As to the topic of how the rune trader killed rune prices for farmers, the new patch fixes this by making runes 100% salvagable from monster armor. Don't id the rune before you salvage it and it will be worth much more.

Aug · Jun 20, 2005, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

why you feel the need to throw personal insults into a converation about a video game befuddles me...I'm not as tactless enough to do the same. Though I surely hope it helped you feel better about yourself.

Yes, your statement likening A.Net's programming capabilities to those of fresh college graduates was so very tactful

Especially with such solid reasoning as "the developers eliminated my ability to price gouge newbs! they didn't think about my economic welfare!"

This whole thread boils down to people who want to be able to make money at other player's expense due to the poor in-game player trade system. It has nothing to do with programming abilities, nor can you draw any conclusions upon A.Net's change control management. So just stop trying to make those evaluations/judgements.

The value/viability of Major runes has little to do with Rune Traders, and really deserves a thread of its own. I agree that Major runes are imbalanced, but the Trader's existance doesn't impact that in any way.

Qi Ang · Jun 20, 2005, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Great Gjl

I don't play video games for 'fulfillment' (wow, what a pathetic notion) or 'achievement.' I play them for fun, and I think that's the whole point of a video game. If the only time you are having fun in this game is when a rune drops, then I do pity you for continuing to play it, or even playing FOR it.

I don't want to look forward to having fun, I want to be having fun while I'm playing.

So you're one of those kids who puts in the God codes immediately in a game and just run through killing everything quickly and laughing? I pity YOU, then...

Algren Cole · Jun 20, 2005, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aug

Yes, your statement likening A.Net's programming capabilities to those of fresh college graduates was so very tactful

Especially with such solid reasoning as "the developers eliminated my ability to price gouge newbs! they didn't think about my economic welfare!"

This whole thread boils down to people who want to be able to make money at other player's expense due to the poor in-game player trade system. It has nothing to do with programming abilities, nor can you draw any conclusions upon A.Net's change control management. So just stop trying to make those evaluations/judgements.

actually...I gave all 10 of those runes away to new players...as I did with my max dmg Gold fiery rams hammer, and my Purple Storm bow...I'm NOT trying to take advantage of players...or price gouge. Implementation of a feature that destroys gameplay...and does NOTHING to offset the economic market for which is was introduced...is poor scope analysis...

Creston · Jun 20, 2005, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreamsmith

Creston: Yes and no. Well, largely yes. Major runes need some love from the developers, since no matter how you slice it, they're the least valuable type of rune....snipped for length

Good post, and I agree. I have no problem, personally, with the minor runes and their prices. It's the major and superior runes that I find annoying, since their worth is zero (apart from the very very few that are actually in demand).
I found a superior illusion magic rune, and it sold for 25 gold. For a drop THAT rare, the price really should be higher, which is why I'd recommend a minimum plateau for runes. Maybe say 1K for major (which need an overhaul any way you slice it) and 2K for superior. On the other hand, that would just be fixing a symptom, where the actual cause is just a poorly conceived rune system in itself, and it's not the rune trader's fault.

(Btw, this still doesn't explain the issue I came across in a thread I posted yesterday, where a buddy goes to the rune trader, gets 600 gold for his minor energy storage, and I go to the rune trader 2 minutes later, and the same rune fetches 25 gold.

THAT actually seems like a bug to me. I can't imagine that someone went in and bought 50 energy storages in 2 minutes to make the price fluctuate that wildly. )

But I agree, supply and demand works well in the case of runes. It's just a clear sign of largely unrealised potential when so many runes are deemed worthless.

Creston

Aug · Jun 20, 2005, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

actually...I gave all 10 of those runes away to new players...as I did with my max dmg Gold fiery rams hammer, and my Purple Storm bow...I'm NOT trying to take advantage of players...or price gouge. Implementation of a feature that destroys gameplay...and does NOTHING to offset the economic market for which is was introduced...is poor scope analysis...

The only people's game play it destroyed were those who loved to sit and work the player trade system. That's it. It benefited everyone else. I'm pretty sure the entrepreneur population segment is not the majority.

I believe your under the false assumption that YOUR idea of fun is the majority. I don't believe that's true. And maybe you should consider the fact that A.Net doesn't either, rather than that they failed to analyze the impact of their decision.

I'm quite sure A.Net knew that the market price on all minor and major runes would plummet. And they likely knew that the majority of superior runes would also be worth significantly less. And not only did they provide a way to actually guage rune values for the general public, but they also introduced a gold sink. The Rune Trader eats about 15% of every sale.